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Discussion Starter #41
Chris, the commercial sector hasimplemented an effectivemethodto manage our share (non fishing public's share)of red snapper, and the IFQ concept isbeingapplied to other species. Recreational/charter must agree on appropriate management for their sectors.Recreationalwill then be able to fish year round,with increases in the TACas the stocks arescientifically managed, become sustainable and numbers increase.Charter's SoS concept is an attempt to improve the management of their share. You cannot continue the "faith based/I believe" management methods.
 

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lbhuntley (10/7/2009)Charter's SoS concept is an attempt to improve the management of their share.
LB

Under SOS a select group of charter fisherman would be able to count fish caught - no doubt.

However, let's notforget that the driving force behindthe SOS concept is that it is a businessplan designed to secure public resources for profit, as explained in the following qoute taken from the above email from the plan's primary backer.

"I assume youare aware of the changes in those regulations concerning theupcoming 2010 cut off date under the RMSA mandates to end ALL over fishing by that date. These new regulations can lead to the total closure of any species considered over fished by any sector in the GOM. These present species are red snapper, gag grouper,greater amber jack and gray trigger fish. These basically are all of the species that you and I fish for profit in federal waters and this possibility is a terrifying probability if you want to stay in business."

Mark W
 

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We all know that this whole situation is brought about due to government incompetence, malfeasance, and corruption.

We all KNOW that there are tremendous numbers of red snapper on EVERY reef and wreck.

I don't need a government study to tell me that. Even if the NMFS bothered themselves to abide by the laws of congress.

I also don't need anybody to tell me that whenever money gets involved in any situation, fairness goes out the window. Ethics follow as well.

I think we are all going to get the shaft on this one. I also think it might actually help our cause if the NMFS completely shut down red snapper for a year. There would be enough anger and outrage that it would serve as a catalyst for protests and picketing of the NMFS and Dr. Crabtree himself. I don't think anything short is going to change status quo, which is bad because it means more financial hardship is in store for charterboat captains.

It is not recreational vs. charter vs. commercial. It only seems that way because the government is trying to whittle it down based on bad numbers (due to incompetence).

I say whatever happens, it just needs to be fair. It is too much to ask for considering that money is involved, though.
 

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LB you still haven't answered my question. How can the fish belong to "the people" of Florida and YOU get YOUR SHARE? Are you a recreational fisherman or a captain? Can I hire you to catch fish on your boat when I can't on mine? Or can I hire you and we fish on my boat when I can't by myself? How about we sell fish tags to the PUBLIC and theINDIVIDUAL decides how and where they use them? Maybe the bulk of the public will bypass you altogether. I don't think we need to agree on a management tool. We are fighting a battle with a fringe that would love to shut you down completely. We have cut limits and increased sizes for decades. Snapper have come back well. Do you not agree? You'll be the Indian making a deal with the government, only to have that deal renigged on, kicking you off your land, or in this case your boat.Thenwhat? Go ahead and play the game instead of fighting it. You need to do like the East Coast and talk to our elected officials because YOU'RE GETTING SCREWED.

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Chris, like you I want the fisheries to become sustainable,stocks to grow and theTAC to increase. I believeobjective, scientific managementis the answer. Federal, state and local governments must be involved, withpublic input,to develop and enforce effective management policies. The policies in place, developed by Gulf Council and NMFS,are certainly having a positive effect onred snapper. Do you believe there would be as many RS today if everyone could catchwithout limits? Take a look at this article. How do we avoidthe "tragedy" without effective (scientific) government management? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
 

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LB,

The Tragedy of the Commons is a nice story and describes real problems. But economic theory has demonstrably underestimated the ability of communities to solve these type problems. Lin Ostrom, at the University of Indiana, has a wonderful book, Governing the Commons that shows how conventional wisdom can sometimes turn out to be plain wrong. Ostrom has coordinated a major, decades-long research project that has examined literally thousands of situations involving commons-type resources. She?s come to the counter-intuitive conclusion that local communities can in fact do rather well in managing these resources, as long as they?re allowed to.

Ostrom argues, on the basis of voluminous amounts of empirical evidence, that problems such as overfishing aren?t solved by privatization or centralization. Instead, they?re best addressed by ?polycentric? governance systems, in which central authorities provide broad enforcement, but let local communities set their own rules as much as possible. For example, problems of overfishing of lobsters along the Maine coast have been solved by local lobster fishermen that informally regulate certain parts of the coast, working in conjunction with the state government. This approach allows local users to use their specific knowledge to maintain resources. Ostrom suggests, something like this approach seems to be the best bet for managing fishery resources on a wider scale.But it appears to have a track record of actually working - something that can?t be saidfor the track record of the National Marine Fisheries Service with respect to gulf red snapper management over the course of the past 30 years.

<SPAN class=posted>Mark W
 

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I think we call agree the decisions being made about overfishing are being based on faulty or non-existant data. They will keep making these decisions until we pull together as a whole. United we stand, divided we fall.

My opinion about commercial, recreation and charter sectors is (LOL some of you aren't going to like this) I don't think there should be any difference. The resource is owned by "The People" and "The People" should have equal access to the resource.

No where does it say anybody has a RIGHT to make money fishing. Just becausesomeone has a big boat and a big net this some how gives them the right to catch more fish than some one fishing from shore. The constitution states we have the right to PURSUE happiness. It does not say you have the right to make money fishing becasue your great grandfather did.

So if there are 1 million fish in the sea and1 million people fishing that means everybody gets to have 1 fish. If you can turn that into a buck then I am more thanhappy for you. If not, well the world needs ditch diggers too.

I know this will not happen and if it did it would have massive economic implications. A bunch of people would be out of work and a grouper sandwich at Peg Legs would cost $500 but honestly I don't care. Sorry if that offends you.

I just don't see how anybody is entitled to catch more fish than anybody else in this world.

Blast away!
 

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Well Said Craig W. :clap

The Ole "I demand to be able to make a living at fishing" is absurd. :nonono (Ditch diggers is a great point)

All I want is to keep 2 Red Snapper everytime I go fishing. Is that so bad? Is that going to deplete the fishery?

Endangered Species, in most cases, can be attributed to Commercial exploitation. Whales, Buffalo's etc....
 

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Guys,

Do not feed the LB troll. He is a broken record that will not answer any of your questions. All he does is type the same response over and over.
 
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