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Explain to me how someone can post all over the internet that a bunch of people are liars and thiefs because they are interested in trying to save what little careers they have left. They are makingan HONEST living supporting their families by doing what they know how to do best and that is fish. I have never met a chater boat owner or operator that has had a lot of money. In most cases they are barley scraping by.I am just curious because allI can see in these signitures is a textbook case for defimation of character. Disliking SOS as a whole is one thing but saying to not support the supporters of this cause because they are liars and thiefsand plastering it all over the internet is just wrong and attacking them as individuals. I just want to know how these guys are stealing and lying. Please help me understand.
 

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:popcorn:popcorn:popcorn

i will not, nor will my LARGE familypatronize any charter captain who is for save our selfs

will, with all the posting about sos i think the percentage who understand is a little higher than your estimation

take no solace in wills post he is always the devils advocate, you will find little sympathy on this forum for those who support sos

drop sos and join rec fishermen in the fight against the real enemy nmfs and their flawed methodology
 

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Fully Loaded, It's a lot like this; If truckers said they needed to have faster access to where they're going because traffic is slowing them down too much and they need something done. They propose that non commercial driving be limited to 1 mile per day. What would you do? Sell your car? Ride a bike? You would survive and make adjustments, but would it really be necessary.
 

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<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">OK, I'll take a shot, although I'm not a "Hater". I'd like to think that I am trying to understand the truthbehind the SOS initiative. I do not believe that anyone is "lying" but I do thing there is some degree of deception, dishonesty and misdirection involved, all motivated by profit ( which in and of itself not a bad thing).<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">First, let?s examine this. Bolds are mine: <o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Aletter from Capt. Gary Jarvis - August 2009<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Thanks for checking out the SOS web site. I appreciate the fact that you care enough about your businesses to research for yourself what will be the best course of action to protect your investment in time, money and life's passion to become a professional fisherman. The whole time SOS has been involved together as individual Charter boat owners and Captains we have stayed true to the concept of truth and transparency. As we got together to try and formulate our individual ideas on a better course for the charter for hire industry to go in and bring it into a cohesive <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">plan<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> that would benefit all charter for hire fishermen, we knew that there would be resistance to our ideas on ways to make our plan even better. The SOS plan as it now is called, has continued to evolve as individuals like you have gotten involved with the politics of fishery management and helped formulate practical ways to improve the long term outlook for the Charter for hire industry.

<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">We have, through the development of good ideas and hard work, gotten the Gulf Council to take a hard look at the unsuccessful status quo fish management practices to see if there was a better way to manage our fishery. The discussion about data collection, sector separation, catch shares and allocations has been the most proactive that we have seen in a quite some time. A new attitude on how to and how soon we can improve the fishery and the charter for-hire industry has given some of us o'l salts a glimmer of hope that our industry has a chance to benefit the next generation of men and women that want to work and make a living on the water.

<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Unfortunately, as one of the spokespersons for our plan, I have been the target of detrimental comments and accusations about my character , my professional abilities as a fisherman, and my associations with people and organizations, and even if I am the author of these agonizing one finger at a time e-mails and statements. The last accusation is the one that really hacks me the most, just to get this far in this letter has taken me about 25 minutes.

<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">As we began this plan just 2 years ago we understood that it would be hard, time consuming, frustrating and at times, over our heads when it came the politics and procedures of the NMFS, but we were so desperate as businessmen that we began anyway. During the early process when we were communicating back and forth about different ideas and plans I wrote a few e-mails to the few captains I know about my ideas concerning the demise of our businesses. You can see one of them
<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">here<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">, I wrote them and made them public in Feb -March of 2007, that was about 8 months before we presented the SOS plan to the Ad Hoc Recreational Red Snapper AP panel in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New Orleans</st1:place></st1:City>. A short time after, I sent those e-mails to Capt David Krebs of Arial seafood who then forwarded it to Pam Baker of EDF. Pam and David had worked together to come up with a plan to stop the insane fishing derby that was negatively impacting the commercial fishing industry.

<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">In late June almost 4 months after my e-mails began our discussions and before we had our plan on paper, Jeff Barger who works with Pam at EDF contacted me and wanted to meet and talk and learn more about the ideas presented in my letters and to see if there were any common issues that we could combine resources on. He stated that our ideas not only had conservation oriented plans but that it was the first time that anyone in the recreational sector came up with ideas to be accountable for what they harvest and desired sound scientific applications to accomplish it. It was through these discussions and follow-up meetings that involved several captains from Orange Beach, Destin, Panama City and surrounding areas that gave rise to the
<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">SOS plan<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">, a comprehensive plan to turn our ideas into a workable solution to the serious <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">problems <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">facing our industry.

<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If you have followed fish politics and know the difficulties and procedural applications that any group or person has to go through, it is easy to see that we need any advice we can get to speed things up because of the impending issues with ACL and AM's. And in these economic times we are in, any delays that could be avoided by making mistakes from lack of knowledge of the NMFS process is critical due to our industry withering away on the vine due to fishing regulations and the economy affecting our industry.
<o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">In the fishery management process you will not have much success with the Gulf Council, NMFS or the environmental groups unless you have a sound conservation minded plan. Our plan is sound and with help from EDF we have stayed front and center with this council trying to resolve years of frustration to accomplish something that will benefit us. For this, those opposed to our plan have taken shots at me at a regular basis. I am now getting used to it but had to write this letter for those who desire to know the truth, these are the facts:<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p>
  1. <LI class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: #1f5080; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">EDF came to us to offer help in putting a together a plan that they could support; <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></LI><LI class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: #1f5080; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">We vetted them out and examined their track record. When it comes to helping fishermen make more money, fish more efficiently, and overall be more successful, their successes are well documented ? see for yourself, go to their web site ? <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">[url]www.edf.org[/url]<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">;
    <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <o:p></o:p></LI><LI class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: #1f5080; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">They gave us help only when we asked for it, they offered opinions, some we listened to other we did not;<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></LI><LI class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: #1f5080; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I have not received any paid salary or job compensation from EDF for my efforts, however, have squeezed some beers and a few meals out of Jeff for putting up with him;<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></LI><LI class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: #1f5080; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">EDF has paid for travel expenses for some of us to go to <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Washington</st1:place></st1:State> twice to meet with our elected representatives to help get our message across;<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></LI><LI class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: #1f5080; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I have not asked you or anyone else for money to go to all these other meetings. All other expenses have been on my dime as well as the other SOS spokespersons who pay their own way. It has and continues to be expensive, but for me it is part of my cost to do business and protect our future;<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></LI><LI class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: #1f5080; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Iwill not ask any of you to give me money, only to come and participate and share the work load to protect your business and customers;<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></LI><LI class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: #1f5080; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I will continue to challenge all of you to get involved. It is time for you to fight your own fight. We ask for your support and will stand with you to protect our ability to be successful;<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></LI><LI class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: #1f5080; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I will ask, and hopefully receive, help from any organization that has the improved health and well being of the fishery stocks AND those of us who rely on the healthy fishery in their interest;<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></LI><LI class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: #1f5080; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">It will be above board and transparent and I make no apology for recognizing my weakness in certain knowledge and the lack of resources to battle the NMFS to save our industry;<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></LI><LI class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; COLOR: #1f5080; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">And that includes getting any for help for travel to go back to <st1:City w:st="on">Washington</st1:City> <st1:State w:st="on">DC</st1:State> or <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Tampa</st1:place></st1:City>, Port Aransas or wherever I need to go to talk to men and women like yourself to work to protect our livelihoods. <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></LI>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">In my life as a husband, father, Captain and boat owner, volunteer high school wrestling and soccer coach, even a t-ball coach, I have always tried to use any and all resources that would help me be the best I could be at all of these endeavors. I have always relied on people who can or have the abilities to teach me or help me do good things for those who have put trust in me. Be it my wife, my Sons, customers, friends, or athletes. For all who have had contact with me and have wanted me to help them or rely on me, I have always taken this approach. Of course every time I try to go it alone failure is not far behind and my life partner and wife Pam will attest to this statement of fact. And this is how and why not only I, but the other charter for hire Captains that you see on our supporter list have made no apology for the relationship we have with EDF and any other organization that has come to support us and encourage us to move forward. And provide us with skills, resources or recommendations in this effort to move in a positive direction. For us, it only makes good business sense.<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I believe this should answer some of the accusations, more are sure to come, all up to now have been half truths at best most are out right lies. Whether it is jealousy, power plays, plain old fighting for as much as they can get or the lack of knowledge about the dilemma that we are in the things said about our efforts are far from the truth. In the future be careful what you hear and always talk to the person being accused. Please feel free to contact me directly - it is always best to check things out for yourself. And, as Paul Harvey always said, "And now you know the rest of the story.?<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">

<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Capt. Gary Jarvis
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">And now let's look at the rest of that story. But first we need to look atCapt. Jarvis's previous post and position: <o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Folks it is paramount that we realize that we are Not! I repeat NOT recreational fishermen. Our customers are, WE ARE NOT. We are a separate user group that needs to come up with a definitive plan of our own that will benefit all the GOM fisheries and insure the future of our industry by getting our historical portion of said fisheries. For too long we have pitted ourselves against others who are more like us, than not.<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">All charter boat operators ARE recreational fishermen, because they fish under recreational licensure. Some operators co- mingle their recreational business operations with their commercial licensed business, like Captain Jarvis, but they are avery small portion of the charter boat industry in <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Florida</st1:place></st1:State>.So there is no need to "unite" with commercial fishermen.<o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">By playing both sides, and bytheir own definition SOS supporters are not really recreational fishermen. They are commercials double dipping in the resource. It's one thing to say come together ask for solidarity, but historically commercial fishermen have sought administratively to diminish recreational TAC allowances in all "their" fisheries as evidenced by the current 80/20 split. And that is what they are attempting to do with this initiative.Commercial fishermen have never been our friends, in fact, this whole mess we find ourselves in is directly in response to their past actions. Now that we, as the leading economic engine of fishing, have the positive attention of legislators and regulators , they are desperately seeking to align themselves with us.<o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Make sense?<o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">So why then is he promoting this? Where is all this coming from; the notoriously "evil" Pew Charitable Trust? Ms. Lubchenco? Mr. Crabtree?<o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Nope, Captain Jarvis tells you in this first letter. It's thishappy guy:<o:p></o:p><DIV class=content>

<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">That's Jeff Barger. He works for Environmental Defense fund.You remember them , they sued <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Florida</st1:place></st1:State> and the feds along with the Save the Manatee Club to get recreational boats off the water on the premise that we are responsible for the extinction of West Indian Manatees.<o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">So what is EDF up to? Well throughCaptain Jarvis's SOStheyare advancing the idea of catch shares (IFQs), not only for commercial fishermen , but for you as recreational fishermen too. So what's so bad about that? And why would EDF want that to happen?<o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Is it because they really are concerned about the "health" of the fisheries?Is it because they want you to enjoy your sport while being reasonably regulated? Or is there something else?<o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Is it because catch shares vest the entire federally regulated fisheries as an entitlement or quota in a select few operators. So why would a very liberal environmental advocacy NGO want to create cap and trade style economic monopolies of fisheries?<o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Well, once the quotas are determined and distributed to qualifying businesses, prices for the rights to entire fisheries can be set and purchased. Commercialfishermen like Captain Jarviscan sell their quota and permits, to EDF partnersand cash out of their businesses. And the fisheries will be controlled by investors as commodities to be traded on the open and ?greening? marketplace.<o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">So is all this lying and thievery? No it's just the politicsin businessof the new green economy. To mask any of this as being a personal attack on ?honest hardworking fishermen? is a diversion. The reality goes a lot more deeply into political maneuvering. <o:p></o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I hope that the above adequately addresses your concerns.<o:p></o:p></DIV>
 

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Fully_Loaded (12/9/2009)Explain to me how someone can post all over the internet that a bunch of people are liars and thiefs because they are interested in trying to save what little careers they have left. They are makingan HONEST living supporting their families by doing what they know how to do best and that is fish. I have never met a chater boat owner or operator that has had a lot of money. In most cases they are barley scraping by.I am just curious because allI can see in these signitures is a textbook case for defimation of character. Disliking SOS as a whole is one thing but saying to not support the supporters of this cause because they are liars and thiefsand plastering it all over the internet is just wrong and attacking them as individuals. I just want to know how these guys are stealing and lying. Please help me understand.
Yea well"fully loaded' the leader ofthe SoS plan lives in a $400,000 house over in destin. So you can dispense with the poor mouthing starving captain theory.

As far as textbook "defimation of character" First it is "defamation" not "defimation" , second are you a lawyer? Cause Idon't think so.

Mark W
 

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Capt Gary,

Your post should be a thunderclap followed by a bolt of lighning. While I deeply respect Gary Jarvis, I do not favor more federal regulation and paperwork that will certainly accompany this sos proposal. Logbooks and Electronic Vessel Monitors and federal observers are just not my cup of gumbo. If I catch mingos out of a ditch beside I-10 it is noones business but mine. If I catch too many mingos, then it becomes FWC's business. If I had to keep a log of every fish caught on my boat, I would need an accountant on each trip. Federal regulation has been a curse in our industry mainly because of in-accurate and/or ignoring of conradictory data. Its hurt private boat fishermen as badly as us charter operators and the trickle down effect has hit lodging, restaurants, gas stations, as well as the related marine vendors such as boat trailer repair shops, ourboard and diesel mechanics and their employers.(not to mention tackle and bait vendors) Its time to take a serious look at NMFS and their motives and quit trying to further divide the classes of fishermen.

I take alot of locals out who simply dont want to maintain a boat. Its these guys Im standing up for. They ARE recreational fishermen who want to fish somewhere other than the beach or pier. There are elites who think that the only people who should be able to fish are the ones able to afford a boat or are lucky enough to have friends or family with a boat. Who the hell do they think they are? We jump through a multitude of hoops and mounds of paperwork to be able to take people fishing and eek out a meager living. We need more regulation like fish needs a bike.

Capt. Jim Stone www.aquaventurecharters.com
 

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<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Well, once the quotas are determined and distributed to qualifying businesses, prices for the rights to entire fisheries can be set and purchased. Commercialfishermen like Captain Jarviscan sell their quota and permits, to EDF partnersand cash out of their businesses. And the fisheries will be controlled by investors as commodities to be traded on the open and ?greening? marketplace.<P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p>If this was going on with the commercial side right now I would say you have a point. Its not! Very few commercial people are selling red snapper shares, they are leaseing them to other fishermen to catch the quota, but not selling them. Right now 70% of thecommercial red snapper quota is leased out to other commercial fisherman. </o:p><P style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f5080; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p>If it ever came to a true IFQ system for the charter for hire, there would be vast leasing of IFQ shares, and If the Charter for hire could ever lease shares from the commercial side, well that could be nice too.You would see real fast that a red snapper is worth alot more per pound in the charter for hire sector than the commercial sector. This would be a winfall for every IFQ ownerin the commercial side because it would drive up the price on snapper IFQ lease,they would be able to lease the shares for more money than if they wentout there and caught them and sold them. It would be toughfor the commercial side to be able to get a lease becausefishermen will pay way more of a price for them. If this could ever happen whats to say that a true rec. weekend fisherman could not someday be able to lease shares from commercial or charter for hire too.</o:p>
 

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"If this could ever happen whats to say that a true rec. weekend fisherman could not someday be able to lease shares from commercial or charter for hire too. "

Why should a weekend fisherman pay a private businessman for the right tocatch and keep afish that is public resource?

Mark W
 

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I couldnt agree more!!
markw4321 (12/10/2009)"If this could ever happen whats to say that a true rec. weekend fisherman could not someday be able to lease shares from commercial or charter for hire too. "

Why should a weekend fisherman pay a private businessman for the right tocatch and keep afish that is public resource?

Mark W
 

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Well, I don't HATE SOS supporters. I dislike them because they are aligned with a process that leads to socialistic government control.

How anyone would ever think that MORE regulations could ever be a good thing is beyond me. I need a lawyer and a biologist on my boat as it is. A Biologist to ID the fish (definitively) and a lawyer to decipher the latest closures, restrictions, etc.

My question is this: If it were turned around, and the rec fishermen were to start a SOS plan of their own, and try to exclude the charter guys from their TAC, would the charter guys be mad? I am pretty confident they would be livid. Which is why I am so baffled by this confusion over our anger in this self-serving pandering that is called SOS plan.

<U>Catch shares suck. If no one else will say it, I will.</U> It is a natural resource. Citizens should have first PRIORITY to it, and profits should not be used to make any decisions.

The response from commercial/charter guys is that they are merely "providing a venue" for the citizens to access this natural resource. Fine! Sounds good to me. However, when the "rest" of the citizens are restricted from it just because the "profit-taking" segments of this industry need more access, then I draw the line and cry FOUL!:nonono

Ok, my rant is over now........
 

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The responses here are very good.



This is all about control and money, the politicians and bureaucrats deciding who are the haves, and who are the have nots.



Imagine the EDF wineing and dining boat captains at Charlie Palmer's Steakhouse on Capital Hill and then carrying them back to the Mayflower Hotel in the limo.



Wonder if they flew them up to DC in the Gulfstream?



Like they wouldn't support catch shares. They believe they will be one of the have's. That they are now on the inside. Guess what, they may be unless newly elected candidates go in to shut down the EPA, HHS, etc. At that point all this regulation could become a mute point. Interesting thing about elections in this country, the winds can change directions. All it takes to stop this nonsense is for congress to un-fund the agencies involved. No funding for regulators, no regulation. Regardless of what the agency says.



Got to wonder if the life long friendships these positions are apt to destroy were worth it.



If it was about the fishery, we would have rules like we have on red fish for red snapper and that would be the end of it. Period.
 

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I agree with "Why" if it was about fish protection they would follow the lead of the regs on redfish. But, as we all see and Capt. Gary C. pointed out, this aint about the fish. Its about control. They have already proved that on a grand scale. The way the EDF is going about this, the private stakeholders would be in the same boat as the charter people who have moritorium permits. Lots of you guys probably didnt know this, but you cant just apply for a charter reef fish permit, you have to buy an existing permit from someone going out of business or be a pirate waiting to get caught. If the EDF and the SOS folks got their way, then only folks who had a history of landing certain species would be "entitled" (doncha love that effin word?) to harvest fish... (probably would start with RS and end with pinfish) and I don't know how that could be more unfair. BTW... I know of a solid charter operation with a nice boat for sale.. glass, permits, twin diesels, great electronics, and numbers for 75 large.
 

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Got this email from dennis today.... (FRA)

The FRA is in attendance at the current SA Council meeting in NC. </DIV>Interestingly, Dr. Crabtree confirmed that the red snapper closure will INCREASE the uncertainty of recreational landings estimates. This increased uncertainty will lead to even LONGER rebuilding times.</DIV></DIV>The Council discussed the THIRTY YEARS thattheir scientists estimateRed Snapper will take to rebuild.</DIV></DIV>For a fish that has less than halfthe lifespan of a jewfish, that is a long time. Jewfish populations exploded in just ten years and are now at historically high levels, yet talk of harvest is TABOO. What the heck is going on?</DIV></DIV>Look to the SA Council's SSC (Science and Statistical Committee) for answers.This year, the SSC conspired to ignore Dr. Hester's report on the RS, because Dr. Hester dared to question the SSC's judgement and the stock assessment itself.</DIV></DIV>I personally witnessed an SSC member telling the SSC (after the recorder was turned off) that the SSC must figure out how keep Dr. Hester and Dr. Kenchigton from bringing scientific concerns to the SSC. Dr. Andy Cooper, an paid Ocean Conservancy advocate who is an associate professor at a canadian university, was the one leading the disgusting conversation.</DIV></DIV>Send and email to the SA Council demanding Dr. Cooper's removal from the SSC. [email protected] </DIV></DIV>I will call for this in the FRA public input today.</DIV></DIV>Watch it live at [url]www.joinFRA.org[/url]. Click on the link for the SA meeting live.</DIV></DIV></DIV>


Fighting for your fishing rights,</DIV></DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: Mistral"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Script MT Bold'">Dennis "Denny" O'Hern</DIV>

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dennis O'Hern

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Chief Executive Officer

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fishing Rights Alliance, Inc.

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">www.joinFRA.org
 

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Discussion Starter #17
[/quote]Yea well"fully loaded' the leader ofthe SoS plan lives in a $400,000 house over in destin. So you can dispense with the poor mouthing starving captain theory.

As far as textbook "defimation of character" First it is "defamation" not "defimation" , second are you a lawyer? Cause Idon't think so.

Mark W[/quote]



First of all that is fine, I did not say all of them were struggling. Also a 400,000 house is not that big of a deal anymore.Just because he lives in it does not mean he can afford it.That just means hemay have beensuccessful in the past and saved. Also you fault people for defending what they believe in by what they live in? Maybe the spouse works and brings in money, maybe he has family money.If you lived in a Million dollar house and headed up PETA I would not care even though I think the organizationas aWHOLE is ridiculous and a waste of time. That is what they believe so you cannot fault the individual, I am not singling anyone out in the group just theorganization.Second excuse my spelling I did not ace english nor care that I didn't.Did I say they were starving or poor??? No I did not. 3rd no I am not a lawyer but I have had to deal personally with 2 of these cases in the various lines of work I have been in, one that I filed thank you.



The main reason for this group boils down to what we are all not liking and that is the politicians setting ridiculous limits on a species that is not hurting throughout. Yes they may be lower numbers in areas but we have a reef system larger than any other artificial reef system in the world and our number are plentiful. This group is trying to protect their livelihood. Everyone knows that recreational and charterboats bring way more to the economy than commercial fisherman and they (commercial fisherman)get a majority of the quota and theirs is gutted weight. SOS is trying to get that on a more level playing field, as a general statement. I would just about about bet recreational anglers would not be adversely affected by any success of what the SOS plan stands for. I personally could care less either way because it cannot get a whole lot worse than it is now short of closing the season all together.The biggest issue is leveling the field between commercial and rec. and for hire boats.One of the reasons they close the season is spawning for these fish. Well the commercial guys seasons are a lot longer and may never close ( I cannot remember)until their quota is met. People travel down here on vacation to have fun and the fishing community is a large part of that draw, at least in our area they do. Everyone pays for the fish they catch in the forms of licensing and taxes, it will always be like that and prices will go up but you pay because you like to do it. Nothing is free in this world anymore. Like it or dislike it. My beef was not with being against the SOS plan or the comment to not support the supporters of the plans but throwing in there that they are liars and are going to steal from you to keep them fat and rich was overboard. If you disagree with the plan that is fine, dandy, and your right which I have no prob. with and could care less if youput that in your sigs.but the rest is uncalled for and asinine. There are things I disagree with in the plan as with any large scale plan. Once again I do not believe this will affect the recreational fisherman in any adverse way nor does it matter because the SOS plan itself is not why I started this thread because personally Ido not have a preference either way but it wasit was about the comments behind not supporting the supporters. Thats all, I just wanted to find the mentality out behind that because I would never say that about someone I know nothing about. I said what was on my mind bothering me and feel better.
 

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One of the reasons they close the season is spawning for these fish.
Not to nit pick, but every red snapperI caught in June was full of roe. So the above statment just ain't true. If anything, the rec red snapper season is built around the summer tourism. Pics below from 1 Jun 09 note the bulging roe belly.

Mark W

 

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Most of us that have a problem with SOS proponents think they are not being completely honest with themselves or us. They aren't fighting for theright to fish or any long-term solutions for regulatory mismanagement or corruption(yes corruption-a scientist who thinks more of his/her grants than our rights is corrupt). Ever notice many small-boat operators on board with SOS? Ask Alaska crab fisherman how the little guy faired. By the way, anyone notice how Sen. Don Gaetz had nothing to say on fishing regulation until the amberjack closure and the "Destin Boys" pitched a fit??????????????????????????

P.S. Let's be fair. Let's take away all boat fishing licenses and have strictly private citizen licensing. In doing so take away the distinction between private and charter. We would all be equal and those citizens on a charter would simply be hiring the boat to exercise their fishing rights.

Chris
 

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ryanbr (12/10/2009)Most of us that have a problem with SOS proponents think they are not being completely honest with themselves or us. They aren't fighting for theright to fish or any long-term solutions for regulatory mismanagement or corruption(yes corruption-a scientist who thinks more of his/her grants than our rights is corrupt). Ever notice many small-boat operators on board with SOS? Ask Alaska crab fisherman how the little guy faired. By the way, anyone notice how Sen. Don Gaetz had nothing to say on fishing regulation until the amberjack closure and the "Destin Boys" pitched a fit??????????????????????????

P.S. Let's be fair. Let's take away all boat fishing licenses and have strictly private citizen licensing. In doing so take away the distinction between private and charter. We would all be equal and those citizens on a charter would simply be hiring the boat to exercise their fishing rights.

Chris


I wish they would. Instead, they want to impose MORE regulation, and we would have to pay MORE and buy shares, just to catch the red snapper. What a crock.....
 
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