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Can anyone tell me where the recreational numbers come from? I still stand firm on the fact that nobody confirms what has been caught on the recreational side. It is like me assuming that everyone that uses a computer visits the PFF.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Folks at present time all the charter boat catches are tallied in as part of the 49% of the recreational TAC. I believe the reason for the overfishing during the shortened season might have had something to do with the charter boats hammering out two snapper charters a day. I'm not saying everyone did, someone must have had mechanical problems now and then. Take the charter boats out of the recreational TAC and put them with the commercial guys. The recreational TAC shpuld be left as it is because every year we have more recreational anglers. LB check the salt water license numbers with FWC one of you is wrong.



Kim
 

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Kim (11/4/2009)Folks at present time all the charter boat catches are tallied in as part of the 49% of the recreational TAC. I believe the reason for the overfishing during the shortened season might have had something to do with the charter boats hammering out two snapper charters a day. I'm not saying everyone did, someone must have had mechanical problems now and then. Take the charter boats out of the recreational TAC and put them with the commercial guys. The recreational TAC shpuld be left as it is because every year we have more recreational anglers. LB check the salt water license numbers with FWC one of you is wrong.

Kim
Thats not at all correct. From Feburary to November this year, I ran87 dayson one boat and92 days on the other. We ran less than 7 days on each boat with double trips. My trip numbers were down by %15 and my hours at sea were down %30. Most every other charter boat at zekes have the same numbers or worse.

That was regular charter boat numbers now 3 or 4head boats worked 2 trips most days usually a 6 hour and a 4 hour. Most didnt have a limit of snapper on the 4 hour.
 

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LB. When was the last time you were served commercially harvested wild venison, elk, or the like? The animals belong to the people but I don't see anyone harvesting for those who don't hunt. I personally think that fishing will actually go the other way from what you advocate. I believe that commercially sold fish will/should be grown and harvested andthat the people's ability to personally take should remain. I advocate a fishing bill of rights just as a hunting bill of rights. If we have to go with a tag system so be it. But at the rate we are going it will be determined that mortality due to bycatch of reef fishing is more than the system can handle and reef fishing will be shut down completely. Dice up that pie and what do you come up with?

Chris
 

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Karon came up with 95% mortality for snaps properly vented and released in her study and that's not taking flippers efforts into account. If you're reef fishing, you're killing snapper.
 

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I agree with mark there is no point in gettin worked up anymore time to just go with the flow guys ,Plus golfing is way more funner
 

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lbhuntley (11/4/2009)Kim, I agree, with a limited resource, one sector cannot grow without another sector losing shares. What I don't understand is why recreational believe they deserve more? At the end of 08 only 16% of Floridians possed a salt water fishing license. Why would16% deserve 49% of the resource? If you base the allocation onnon charter recreational fishing numbers the % should go down, not up. Remember, allFloridians (Americans) own the resource. Commercial and charter provide access to the 86% who don't fish for themselves.

Kim, no one wants to reduce the TAC for recreational!IFQ and SoSare based on historical catches. Recreational numbers would also be based on history. You wouldnotbe allocatedless fish, just what you normally catch.
Just a friendly comment here IB. Isn't this data assuming that the other 86% are all catching, or wanting to catchfish from the gulf!If that is the casewe could also assume thatcharters are catchingtheir TAC roughly just under 5 times faster than the private rec fisherman is. How many of those 86% that are unlicensed florida residents actually fish on a charter boat? 5%, 10%, 16% , or even less?
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Why is it being said that the recreational anglers have taken between 1 and 2 million pounds of red snapper in excess of the TAC?? 16% did all that ??? I'll lay odds that it was between the commercial and charter boats not us the recreational anglers.



Kim
 

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Kim (11/5/2009)Why is it being said that the recreational anglers have taken between 1 and 2 million pounds of red snapper in excess of the TAC?? 16% did all that ??? I'll lay odds that it was between the commercial and charter boats not us the recreational anglers.



Kim


Because the Charter boats are part of the rec sector taking rec fishermen fishing:doh



Then you have AL./Miss./La./Tx to make up the rest of the %% unaccounted for in your numbers.
 

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Its been pretty well documented that the recreational fishery in the state of florida accounts for a much larger financial benefit for the state in overall impact than the commercial and charter businesses combined. Yet we dont get taken into account when the regs are written and re-written and re-written again. The commercial and charter captains have to understand that the fish is owned by ALL fishermen, but the difference is as a recreational angler I AM NOT PROFITING from my use of the resource. I use it to teach my children how to appreciate the oceans and for the occasional meal for my table. NOT TO PROFIT FROM IT! This is a huge difference and quite honestly one I dont think gets taken into account when all the powers that be try to figure out how to protect our resource. As a boat captain, charter or commercial, YOU CHOSE to make your living in an area that is highly volatile and subject to not just the whims of politicians, but to mother nature as well. If a particular fish is considered overfished by the NMFS then it should be off the table for EVERYONE! Literally off the table until it has had a chance to recover. Percentages of licensed anglers, charter and commercial, shouldnt even come into play when determining a fishes viability to be taken. The health of the particular stock should be paramount and the science used should be sound, not the mumbo jumbo that seems to be taking place currently. I have used charter boats many times in the past and have always felt that for the most part the captains are some of the most responsible stewards of the resource. But the problem is the commercial fleets are not and the charter captains are making their living off this same resource. It is enevitable that they will be bunched in with the commercial fleet .Whether this is right or wrong isnt for me to say, but as long as you are profiting from using this resource it will be what it is.
 

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It is inevitable that they will be bunched in with the commercial fleet .Whether this is right or wrong isn't for me to say, but as long as you are profiting from using this resource it will be what it is.
It is quite evitiable. And it will be for you to say. Soon too.

Charter boat operatorswork under recreational permits. That means that unlike commercial fishermen, they don't sell fish for a living. They sell fishing.

That is the clear bright line distinction between the two. "Charterboat operator" and "guide" are unregulated professions in the state. That means that they are just boat drivers working under a federal license.

So the number of fish, which is the measure of commercial fishermen's business has no meaning to anyone.

Now there are charter guys (SOS)who play both sides of the game. They alsocatch and sell fish.

What needs to happen and is inevitable if these initiiatives come to the tableis everyone must chose what sector they want to participate in. And that will be mutually exclusive: If you fish commercially, you will not be able to hold a recreational license.
 

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Tidewater1, why do you believefishonly belong to fishermen?. Don't you think all Americansmight also deserve accessto fresh seafood? And howdid you determinedthe science is "mumbo jumbo"?

Iassure you that commercialis extremely interested in a sustainableresource.
 

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OK, I know I have made this rant before, but it's been a while.

First, when I speak of commercial fishermen, I do not inculde charter boats. I remember the days before I had a boat and charter boats or head boats were the only access to bottom fishing that I had as a recreational angler. The charter boats and head boats are simply a way for the recreational angler without a boat to go fishing.

If the government thinks that the Red Snapper is in danger, why is there any commercial fishing?If the fishery is truely in danger, then the commercial guys will soon be out of business anyway, either becasue there will come a point when there are no fish left or the value of the limited catch will not cover the costs of harvesting the fish. If the situation is as dire as the feds indicate, simply cease commercial fishing now before all of the Red Snapper are gone and the commercial fishermen go out of business anyway. Red Snapper should be a game fish and there should not be a commercial harvest.

Now I will hear the cries from the commercial fishermen.They like to compare themselves to other forms of harvesting natural resources. But there is a bigdifference.Farmers own or lease the land and plant the crops themselves. Loggers own the land orpay for the timber rights. Thesame applies for mining. But, somehow commercial fisherman have taken the position that they have some inherent right to the natural resouce that they do not pay for andwhich belongs to all of us. One time when I made this argument I got the response: "Dont' pay for! It costs us a lot to catch fish." But farmers, miners and loggers also have a substantial investment in time, expense and equipment used to harvest. Thedifference is that the farmers, miners and loggersraiseor pay for the resources they harvest in additon to their cost of harvesting equipment. Interestlngly, there are some people who pay for and raise the fish they sell, just not the guys who fish commercially for Red Snapper.

Then there are the cries about all of the commercial fishermen that will be out of work.Things change. Types of jobs come and go. At some point you have to accept the change and move on. I graduated from Memphis Technical High school in 1969. We recently had a 40th reunion. It was amazing how many guys who I went to High School with trained for careers that no longer exist or exist in such small numbers that employment is difficult if not impossible to find. I spent 16 years in the automobile business before I saw coming what has happened to that industry. Fortunately, I recognized the trouble that industry was in before it went to crisis. Most of the people I knew in the business still had their heads in the sand and refused to accept the fact that change was inevitable. Now that the industry is totally in the tank it is too late for some of them to change.At age 40 I bailed out of the car business, went back to school and now have a completely different occupation. (Although many people think that going from being a car dealer to a lawyer is at best a lateral move on the respectability scale of society!) Times change. You must change with the times. And, as noted earlier, if the Red Snapper population is in such danger these guys will be out of business eventaully anyway. Why not shut them down now while there are still some fish left?

I know I don't have much of a part in this fight anymore anyway. My favorite salt water fishing is to fish for snapper and grouper. For almost 30 years we traveled to Florida just to fish, long before I got a boat. When we first got a boat we were on the water on opening day of snapper season every year, just one of several trips a year to the coast. But it is just not worth it to me anymore. I live 500 miles from the coast. It takes 100 gallons of gas to tow our boat to the coast and back. Add to that the cost of Sea Tow, lodgingand all the other expenses and our boat has not been in salt water for 3 years. My neighbors are amazed at the salt water rods and reels stored over my garage door that we haven't used in years. Why? When the Red Snapper limit went to 2 fish per person it is just not worth it. The thousands of dollars we spent in Florida fishing each year now go elsewhere. At a 4 or 5 fish limit I would probably be back. But two fish while the commercial guys rape the ocean, forget it.
 

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Kim (11/9/2009)Well said BJ. Just think in 20 years or so our recreational angler population will almost double.

Kim




Then you will have to catch Half the fish to sustain a viable resource.



There is Not enough to go around now.According to NMFS :banghead
 

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this is for Gary Colecchio, in case you did not see the comments from Gary Jarvis regarding your reply on this post here it is. It was sent to his email list, not sure if you are on it or have seen his comment.

sent via email on 11-9-09 at 11:35am from [email protected].

I would like to remind Mr.Colecchio that there are only 200 or less dual permitted vessels in the charter for hire sector out of close to 1400 total permits Having these permit holders MAKE A CHOICE does not remove them (they will just put the permit on another boat.) from the charter for hire sector.They will still continue to charter and still continue to commercial fish. These permits are landing fish in 2 different TAC's and have no bearing on the over fishing by one tac and not over fishing in the other.So now that you have not reduced the number of CFH vessels now how does that solve anything? To participate in wishful thinking that recreational sector can stay as a whole when you have 2 sets of management standards within one sector is ridiculous. The CFH sector (through SOS) recognizes the problems in recreational fishery management Accountability Measuresand want to solve the problem with sound conservation backed plan that is conclusive to our recreational anglers to have access to GOM reef complexes. Mr. Colecchio continues the argument that to solve the unaccountability in the recreational sector that taking fish out of a accountable fishery is somehow magically going to stop the unaccountable over fishing practices of a sector that wants no accountability or limited access like the CFH sector and commercial sector now have.The private recreational fishery leadership have taken a scorched earth policy that they would prefer a 10 day season or total closure verses any form of limited access like a Tag program.That may be acceptable for him but my family, business and customers beg to differ
 

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How does anyone, let alone the feds, know how many fish are harvested by recreational anglers? It makes way more economic sense (and that is what our government uses in 90% of its decision making) to let the recreational fisherman spend $100 per lb for fish than to buy it in markets for $15 per lb.
 
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