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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/quotas/grouper_tilefish/grouper_tilefish_landings.htm



The commercial guys are supposed to have an accurate means of accounting for their catches, if that's the case and they are considered the bad guys by many, how come they couldn't fill all their quota's in 2008 and it looks like that for 2009 as well.



I know the commercial sector is the dollars and cents commercial sector of fishing. The above site gives the gutted weights of Grouper, Tilefish and Gray Triggerfish. Some of the catches were less than 50% of their TAC and you can bet that it wasn't because they weren't trying to catch them either. The reasons for this are pretty limited, 1- They commercial guys have become worse fishermen, 2- They are fishing in the wrong spots or 3- There are just less fish out there to catch.



If the commercial guys can't catch their quota's on some reef fish it makes sense that the ones they can catch will be over fished and the data does show that to some extent although it doesn't appear to be gross. This all filters over to the recreational sector because we have to live with a season and bag limits. The other guys will fish 12 months a year and still get 51% of the TAC irregardless of what the total TAC is.



This pits the charter fleet in direct competition with the recreational angler for the remaining recreational TAC. Just about all of us are avid anglers but do you really think that we fish as hard as the charter fleet?? I doubt it, most of us want to go out there with our friends, have a fun day on the water, try and catch some fish that will be used for food and have a few beers. How many recreational anglers actually go out there and limit out every time you go out to fish?? How many charter boats go out with a full load of customers go out and don't catch their limit?? Even if it means crowding out the little center console monkey boats off spots to do it (it happens every year multiple times by some captains with that kind of attitude). I've had charter boats get close enough for me to pee on their boat if I had a mind to but I have never had a recreational fisherman in a center council boat ever get that close to me. The Swoop I and Swoop II are the only charter boats that have ever come up on me while I was fishing a spot and called on the radio to ask if I minded sharing the spot with them. I don't know either of those Captains but they are the most polite charter guys I've come across in our area.



That's some food for thought here, check out some of these sites and if you can figure out some of the data stuff let the rest of us know about it.
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

Kim (11/22/2009)http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/quotas/grouper_tilefish/grouper_tilefish_landings.htm



The commercial guys are supposed to have an accurate means of accounting for their catches, if that's the case and they are considered the bad guys by many, how come they couldn't fill all their quota's in 2008 and it looks like that for 2009 as well.



I know the commercial sector is the dollars and cents commercial sector of fishing. The above site gives the gutted weights of Grouper, Tilefish and Gray Triggerfish. Some of the catches were less than 50% of their TAC and you can bet that it wasn't because they weren't trying to catch them either. The reasons for this are pretty limited, 1- They commercial guys have become worse fishermen, 2- They are fishing in the wrong spots or 3- There are just less fish out there to catch.



If the commercial guys can't catch their quota's on some reef fish it makes sense that the ones they can catch will be over fished and the data does show that to some extent although it doesn't appear to be gross. This all filters over to the recreational sector because we have to live with a season and bag limits. The other guys will fish 12 months a year and still get 51% of the TAC irregardless of what the total TAC is.



This pits the charter fleet in direct competition with the recreational angler for the remaining recreational TAC. Just about all of us are avid anglers but do you really think that we fish as hard as the charter fleet?? I doubt it, most of us want to go out there with our friends, have a fun day on the water, try and catch some fish that will be used for food and have a few beers. How many recreational anglers actually go out there and limit out every time you go out to fish?? How many charter boats go out with a full load of customers go out and don't catch their limit?? Even if it means crowding out the little center console monkey boats off spots to do it (it happens every year multiple times by some captains with that kind of attitude). I've had charter boats get close enough for me to pee on their boat if I had a mind to but I have never had a recreational fisherman in a center council boat ever get that close to me. The Swoop I and Swoop II are the only charter boats that have ever come up on me while I was fishing a spot and called on the radio to ask if I minded sharing the spot with them. I don't know either of those Captains but they are the most polite charter guys I've come across in our area.



That's some food for thought here, check out some of these sites and if you can figure out some of the data stuff let the rest of us know about it.


Kim: They chose not to FILL THEIR QUOTA BECAUSE THEY DID NOT NEED TO.



Mark: This SOS Guy did not say prior to the 70's I said prior to the 40's & 50's

And that was a good read from Dr.Shipp Seams like I have said most of that Before just not as Eloquently and with so many words.
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

Captain Eugene, then why in the heck did they over fish Greater Amberhack and Tilefish by almost 10% each??? I guess that must have been because they wanted to.



Kim
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

Kim (11/22/2009)Captain Eugene, then why in the heck did they over fish Greater Amberhack and Tilefish by almost 10% each??? I guess that must have been because they wanted to.



Kim


My take on it is they have no IFQ on those fish and the Half million pound's of AJ's are for incidental take the overages are most likely from lack of reporting ( because they don't have to without IFQ's on those fish)they are just like rec fishermen in these species and reporting standards
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

Capt E check out this site, it clearly shows what they were allowed and what was accounted for.



http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/quotas/grouper_tilefish/grouper_tilefish_landings.htm





Isn't it funny that last year the commercial sector over fished Greater Amberjack by almost 10%, now this year the fishery was closed to recreational anglers while the commercial guys are still fishing for them. What it looks like is that the recreational TAC can be used to take up the slack caused by commercial over fishing ( and I count the charter fleet as well even though their catch numbers aren't included).



Since the commercial sector didn't fill their quota's on grouper and triggerfish, lets just get it over with and combine the commercial and charter fleets. The charter guys can catch what the commercial guys don't to fill the quota (because they don't want to). Then providing that the combine fishing industry doesn't over fish the various species in the Gulf of Mexico and then there will be plenty of fish to go around for the recreational anglers. Some day our near sighted, greedy, shifty politicians will figure out that there are more votes with the recreational anglers who pumped almost six billion into the Florida local economies throughout the year. Recreational anglers spent over 18 billion dollars on boats last year as well for a total of about 24 billion into the Florida economy.



Commercial and charter fleets combined put barely over a billion into the local economies throughout the state. The state will eventually open their ears to the plight of the recreational anglers which will be about a year after we can't fish anymore and the state treasurer looks in the books and see that the sales tax of roughly 1.4 billion dollars isn't in the state's coffers anymore. I figure about that time we will get some positive responses. As a matter of fact according to NOAA's stats, the total sales tax generated by recreational anglers exceeded that which the fishing industry brought in gross.



Kim
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

capt.eugene (11/22/2009)



My take on it is they have no IFQ on those fish and the Half million pound's of AJ's are for incidental take the overages are most likely from lack of reporting ( because they don't have to without IFQ's on those fish)they are just like rec fishermen in these species and reporting standards
I looked at the site and still say the above



You should lose the fantasy of joining the commercial and the recreation for hire.



I have seen you type this no less than twenty times good luck getting it threw NMFS.



Talk to your state waters they are not in my Site's it is the federal waters I am worried about.



Again it is not the fish or the people Catching the fish that are the problem It is the management of the federal waters.



We need to prove that there is no fish problem. Very Simple there is no fish PROBLEM lets prove it.
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

As much as I hate to say it, I believe we do have a fishing problem, specifically overfishing and I lay the blame for that at the doorstep of the commercial and charter boat fleets. By combining them they can be more closely monitored and regulated, With that I believe that the recreational anglers can spot checked more effectively for guestimating the recreational catch. Then the regulating councils can set the set the quota for the fishing industry and the recreational sector more effectively.



Kim
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

Kim

Unfortunately giving a share of the current commercial sector reef fish TAC to the charter group is not even on NMFS agenda. What is on the agenda for further consideration is establishing a for hire sector with it's own reef fish TAC out of the current recreational sector.





Eugene I won't be happy when I am in the lottery with a million other gulf red snapper anglers to get my 2 snapper tags for the year. Guess I am outta luck.

Mark W
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

Mark I understand!



But I also do not believe it will be 2 fish per year!



I do believe it will be more like heres 4 tags when you buy your lic. request more when you use them.
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

I know that Mark and that's why I'm against any reduction in the recreational TAC because the recreational angler sector increases every year. Since 51 % has already been given to the commercial sector, it's my opinion that the entire commercial sector should be combined under that 51%. I wish there was some way that FRA could get a state by state petition going that all of us recreational anglers could sign to show our support for the recreational angler sector.



We need to split the commercial interests off the recreational sector and put them under the Dept of Commerce where they belong. We need to make sure that when they go, they don't take the recreational sector TAC with them, because what the government takes away, they never give back. However I'm hoping that our government isn't stupid enough to give 76% of public resources to private industry. It;s bad enough that they already gave away 51%.



Kim
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

MARK and every other rec fisherman!!!,

You won't be out of luck!!! :clap You will be able to pay Capt E and Capt Burnt $300 + dollars to get your Snapper. After all THEY DESERVE to make money off us recreational fisherman. They also DESERVE to make money off a national resource.

Remember, they are providing us a SERVICE!!!!!! :doh
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

Why are you arguing species and harvest numbers?



Here is how this works, a group gives campaign contributions to a politician, they then go see the politician, the politician asks "Is there any issue where I can help you?" The group says yes, they dance. Ultimately the group works with the politician's staffers and the group writes the regulations (not the staffer). The regulation becomes law This is passed down to the bureaucrats. These numbers are being manipulated by the commercial sector to their benefit.



In another life I walked the halls of congress and played lobbyist. I know this system. Recreational fishermen don't have a chance.



If a congressman from Wisconsin sees a bill like this and the congressman from Florida says, this will make fish cheaper for your constituents how do you think he will vote?
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

Guys you are making my point as you keep this thread alive. 2000 views and 90 repsonses, w/ many of the responses coming from justa handful. The regulations and limits are pitting recreational anglers against each other, and recreational anglers against the charter industry. We need to get involved and find viable solutions. I personally think we should be informed andidentifiy organizations thatprovide an effective voice. Fighting amongst ourselves does not work, when commercial fishing stacks boards and speaks w/ unified voices.
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

OMG Admiral Run Dover,

How can you say 300 dollars... you must have just spent your 420... BTW.. I get 110 dollars to take a tax paying citizen fishing. If they like the service that a 5th year deckhand provides, they are free to tip him. If you have a rotten time, you have me to blame. How couldyou lose other than if you lost the big fish pool. We also take a lot of navy guys that are here for 12 weeks or so and just want to enjoy a day on the gulf. Its not hard to understand thatthese deserving fellows cant afford a proline much less a johnboat. Not to mention all the returning vets from Iraq and Afghanistan.... Have a nice day :)
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>http://saveoursector.com/WhatWeDo/SectorSeparation.aspx</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT></TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>A NEW APROACH TO OUR FUTURE </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Most of you know who I am, but those of you who don?t here is a short bio so maybe it will help you see where I am coming from. I have been fishing out if Destin, Fl as a full time charter and commercial fisherman since 1978. I started fishing in the GOM when I was 18, professionally at 21, I am now 51. I became a Captain in 1980 and bought my first boat in 1989 and my second boat in 1994. I owned 2 boats for 4 years and sold one to stay a one boat owner with my 57ft Miller the Back Down 2. </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>I have charter fished each summer and commercial fished every winter since I became a professional fisherman. I hold a commercial reef, mackerel, and tuna permits. I am also a red snapper IFQ shareholder. My wife Pam and I have been married for 34years and raised 3 sons, 2 of which we put through college. All that I own, all the cost of raising our kids and every thing I?ve accomplished has been through being a full time fisherman.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>At this time in my life I have thought about just getting out and to hell with the regulations and rules that have slowly eroded our ability to make a living as a fisherman. In fact I still may get out and retire and do something else. But then I think about all the men and women that still want to pursue the dream of being producers in this country instead of consumers and produce fish for the general public. And I think about the friends and relationships that come with taking them fishing and the memories for them that last a lifetime. And when I think about that, it makes me realize that it is still important to remain in the fight to insure a future for those that wish to follow the same dream that I followed, and that was so good for me and my family. The thoughts and ideas I am about to convey may make some people angry, others to say I am on to something, and even others to say what a pipe dream, it can?t be done. So be it, but if nothing else, I hope it causes us to start to think in different way, ask new questions and start a dialog amongst those of us who have such a stake in this industry.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>IDENTIFY WHO WE ARE </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Up to now, I feel like we have had an identity crisis. Who are we and what do we represent in fisheries management? There have been basically four main user groups competing for their share of the Gulf?s resources. I want to apply most of my ideas to all the species of fish even though red snapper, grouper and Amberjack are the hot button items to us. You have the shrimpers, the commercial reef fisherman, charter for hire, and the private recreational fisherman. Unfortunately, for reasons that have always confused me, have thrown ourselves into the group that consistently has a hostile attitude and desire to put all professional fishermen ,whether they drag a net, use a long line or bandit , or get paid to take people fishing, to get them out of the Gulf of Mexico and re-allocate all the fisheries to them . This may be a harsh statement to make, but the reality of this is fact. Just read any saltwater fishing magazine, any issue of the year and read the editorials from the publishers and the response from their readers. Take all the organized associations for rec saltwater anglers, read their bylaws, read their correspondence and law suits, it is all anti-professional fisherman. In fact, through the last few years some of us and a select few spokespersons who are recognized by the NMFS and our industry as representatives of the charter for hire segment, have attacked and worked against other professional fishermen in an attempt to show the private recreational segment that we are on their side.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Folks it is paramount that we realize that we are Not! I repeat NOT recreational fishermen. Our customers are, WE ARE NOT. We are a separate user group that needs to come up with a definitive plan of our own that will benefit all the GOM fisheries and insure the future of our industry by getting our historical portion of said fisheries. For too long we have pitted ourselves against others who are more like us, than not. A man who gets up in the morning and goes to his boat or to his bosses boat and works to prepare to go out to sea to catch fish and his success at doing that will determine if the boat payment is met or the truck payment , electric bill or doctor bills are paid. He my friend is a professional fisherman, his family, his deckhands and their families are all like me and I should not pit myself against them.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>That said, does that mean that only one or two segments of these user groups should bear the brunt of restrictive fisheries management? I think not. If one segment of professional fishing by their technology or equipment causes undo harm or efficiency of over harvest then thru much debate and compromise they can bear their share of the burden to come up with a plan to benefit the resource and still stay in business. </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>WE NEED A PLAN</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Our biggest problem, after we come to the realization of who we are, is what do we need to do? We have 3 big issues that need to be addressed first then take on some smaller issues after they are settled. </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Number 1, we must become our own user group in our approach to all fisheries management. We, as that separate user group, need to work hard to make sure that we get a fair share of the historical portion of each resource. We are a limited entry group with permit requirements just like all the other commercial fishermen, the problem as stated before is we haven?t acted in that manner. We must come up with a plan that can demonstrate to the NMFS that will enhance the fisheries and give them the knowledge to enable them to make good decisions on how to do it. As a IFQ shareholder some of the things we worked for and got implemented would serve as a good model to use for the Charter For Hire user group.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Number 2, the NMFS is given the job to protect and restore the resources. They have had that enviable job caught in the middle of poor science and the different user groups. We as of late have become more hostile (due to the threats of survival) in the approach to fisheries management instead of helping them save the resource. If I am a NMFS councilman and I have to make a decision about a certain species and my science is suspect and the user groups motivations are suspect (profit and viability), then my only choice is to ere on the side of the fish. Put yourself in their shoes. We all agree the science up to now is poor at best and down right ludicrous at times. This is where we can make the most important impact in the shortest possible time. We must, hire an independent contractor to document all of the fish that we catch this year. It will take too long for the NMFS to get a for hire log book program going. In the mean time they have some critical decisions to make on a variety of issues that can further hinder our ability to stay in business and without solid concrete figures and documentation we are going to further lose. We can hire a noted university or outside contractor to gather the info. Eventually the NMFS can get it going, but for now we must take this upon ourselves. Perhaps we can get a federal or individual state grants to pay for it, but if need be we must pay for it ourselves.</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Number 3, we must utilize the first 2 issues to come up with a plan that will benefit all For Hire fishermen in the entire GOM. That means we MUST begin to take a look at the big picture of fisheries management and not take the approach that most of us have in the past few years with how is it going to benefit me, instead of how will this benefit all of us. I realize that the GOM covers a lot of water, ports and states, and with that fact creates a lot of various issues. That means compromise by all of us at some point is going to be necessary . Without that attitude going into any of the various issues facing our industry we will certainly fail in our attempts to do battle against those that want us out of the picture. </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Capt. Gary Jarvis</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>LETS GO FISHING</TT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

Captain Jarvis,



I appreciate your frankness and agree that the desires of the commercial fleet and the recreational fishermen desires can and should be congruent.



But, between the over zealous politicians and the commercial fishermen (and possibly the greenies) the recreational fishermen have gotten the short end of the stick.



As I have stated, this is a money - jobs issue but I must regress into the rules to provide evidence that recreational fishermen are the loosers in this debate.



If the GOM Red Snapper population is truly endangered, why is it available right now down at Joe Patti's? While at the same time if I go out and catch them all day long I must feed the porpoises with them or risk substantial fines?



This question reflects the real issues with regard to the regulations. Why was the regulation written this way? Simply because the commercial fleet's needs were listened to. The recreational fishermen did not have a seat at the table. The GOM Red Snapper did not have a seat at the table. If the rules were applied across all fishermen then the Snapper would have been the driver here.



I appreciate what you do. You work for a living. You should be able to earn.



Until the commercial fleet realizes that having the recreational angler aligned against them is not in their interest and begin protecting the rights of the recreational angler your profession will be at risk.



Consider:

Recreational Anglers and Environmentalist verses the commercial fleet



or



Recreational Anglers and Commercial Fishermen verses the Environmentalist



Don't kid yourselves that is the plan. The environmentalist realize if they get us divided they can end all of our rights. That is the end game here. Unfortunately if the commercial fleet doesn't begin to defend the recreational anglers rights the rec anglers will find themselves aligned with the environmentalist.



Now, is the money coming from the commercial fishing industry or the environmentalist? I don't think it matters.
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

Consider this alliance which is what we have now with the SOS plan:

Commercial / Charter "not for hire" / Environmental Groups vs Recreational

Mark W
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

Burnt Drag (11/22/2009)OMG Admiral Run Dover,

How can you say 300 dollars... you must have just spent your 420... BTW.. I get 110 dollars to take a tax paying citizen fishing. If they like the service that a 5th year deckhand provides, they are free to tip him. If you have a rotten time, you have me to blame. How couldyou lose other than if you lost the big fish pool. We also take a lot of navy guys that are here for 12 weeks or so and just want to enjoy a day on the gulf. Its not hard to understand thatthese deserving fellows cant afford a proline much less a johnboat. Not to mention all the returning vets from Iraq and Afghanistan.... Have a nice day :)
Capt Burnt,

I'm not an Admiral. I <U>retired</U> as a Gunnery Sergeant. If you feel the need to address me by my former rank, just call me Gunny, no need for formalities.

I appreciate the fact that you have so much patriotism for the above metioned servicemen and women. They have or will sacrifice much for our freedoms. By the way, do you offer a specialrate for the military you mention?

As to your last sentence, as an Afghanistan and Iraq veteran andtaxpaying citizen, don't I deserve to, as a veteran or not,be able totake my 8 and 9yo out to enjoy a day of fishing on the Gulf,and keep a couple of Reef fish like Red Snapper and Amberjack?

Why do I have to pay to get on your boat to do that?
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

markw4321 (11/23/2009)<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>IDENTIFY WHO WE ARE</TT><TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Folks it is paramount that we realize that we are Not recreational fishermen! I repeat NOT.</TT></TT><TT> Our customers are, WE ARE NOT. </TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"><TT>Capt. Gary Jarvis</TT><P style="TEXT-ALIGN: left"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Then Captin Jarvis needs to do either of two things , understand that the there are only two sectors, by definition Commercial and Recreational and chose which regulations he wants to particpate under or turn in his recreational licenses.

There is no third option as there is no third sector. You either sell fish or your don't. As a charter operator , I don't. And I will not work under the assumption that I need to be regulated by the quantity of fish I sell.And Iwill not particpate in any recreational IFQ program as long as I fish under recreational licensure.
 

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RE: Alliance between charter boat captains, fishermen fraying as red snapper deadline looms

I like the duplicity in Jarvis' letter where recreational anglers in the letter are all againstcharter boat operators yet recreational anglers are the SOS plan customer's.

The SOS plan is a sad situationin a number of ways. My understanding is that by design under SOS the charter boats would "own the fish" through an IFQ system and allow paying recreational anglerstheopportunity to catch and keep them.Though that same recreational angler would have to throw the snapper back he caught in a private boat if he caught it outside the 30 day recreational red snapper season we will get if we are lucky in the year 2010 and beyond.

It all makes perfect sense to me.:doh

Mark W
 
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