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Old 03-17-2011, 02:22 PM   #1
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Default Flounder Handling

What method do you prefer. Considering best food quality/Freezing long term.
For 20 plus years I have never given it much thought. Catch em slam em Ice em fillet and eat! My father inlaw who is really old school hardly ices them throws them into a cooler next to a frozen bottle then rolls everything in corn meal.

I know there is Japan's method kept alive then Ike Jime using a wire up the spinal cord. This seams a little extreme.

For the sake of argument I know I can just keep doing it the way I have for years.
While the Fish/food is edible, just looking to get maximum Taste, texture and preservation.

They say the more the fish flops around and gets stressed the more acidic the taste as well as toughness.

Also let them bleed out while heart is still pumping then place into iced cooler
While not filleting too soon (Pre Rigor) it is said Fillets will Shrink /Curl more and have little flavor.
Filleted while in rigor mortise stage is not so good either having to break the Fillet membranes while straitening will make it lose moisture and not be as juicy when eating freezing or Cooking.

It is said best to wait until fish comes out of rigor for maximum taste and flesh quality which allows amino acids PH to stabilize into more ATP whatever that is which ads more of a sweet buttery flavor.

Oddly enough i can recall eating all phases whether by mishandling or just lucked into proper methods there may be something to it to achieve consistent results in food quality.

I always heard and thought Fish was Best Fresh right out of the water!
Seems this is not the case.... Same goes for Sushi /Sushi grade.

Apparently there is more of a science kinda like aged Beef.

So the plan is to stun while on the Gigg (Minimize flopping Stress) then Bleed Gut ice down and Fillet only after Rigor is gone. I'm guessing this will provide some grade A fillets.

Again I know we can all fill our gullet with anything. Just looking to improve the table fare.

Anyone have any other thoughts on this?

Last edited by jigmaster; 03-19-2011 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:45 PM   #2
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5. POSTMORTEM CHANGES IN FISH

5.1. Sensory changes
5.2. Autolytic changes
5.3. Bacteriological changes
5.4. Lipid oxidation and hydrolysis

5.1 Sensory changes

Sensory changes are those perceived with the senses, i.e., appearance, odour, texture and taste.

Changes in raw fresh fish

The first sensory changes of fish during storage are concerned with appearance and texture. The characteristic taste of the species is normally developed the first couple of days during storage in ice.

The most dramatic change is onset of rigor mortis. Immediately after death the muscle is totally relaxed and the limp elastic texture usually persists for some hours, whereafter the muscle will contract. When it becomes hard and stiff the whole body becomes inflexible and the fish is in rigor mortis This condition usually lasts for a day or more and then rigor resolves. The resolution of rigor mortis makes the muscle relax again and it becomes limp, but no longer as elastic as before rigor. The rate in onset and resolution of rigor varies from species to species and is affected by temperature, handling, size and physical condition of the fish (Table 5.1).

The effect of temperature on rigor is not uniform. In the case of cod, high temperatures give a fast onset and a very strong rigor mortis. This should be avoided as strong rigor tensions may cause gaping, i.e., weakening of the connective tissue and rupture of the fillet.

It has generally been accepted that the onset and duration of rigor mortis are more rapid at high temperatures, but observations, especially on tropical fish show the opposite effect of temperature with regard to the onset of rigor. It is evident that in these species the onset of rigor is accelerated at 0C compared to 10C, which is in good correlation with a stimulation of biochemical changes at 0C (Poulter et al., 1982; Iwamoto et al., 1987). However, an explanation for this has been suggested by Abe and Okuma (1991) who have shown that onset of rigor mortis in carp (Cyprinus carpio) depends on the difference in sea temperature and storage temperature. When the difference is large the time from death to onset of rigor is short and vice versa.

Rigor mortis starts immediately or shortly after death if the fish is starved and the glycogen reserves are depleted, or if the fish is stressed. The method used for stunning and killing the fish also influences the onset of rigor. Stunning and killing by hypothermia (the fish is killed in iced water) give the fastest onset of rigor, while a blow on the head gives a delay of up to 18 hours (Azam et al., 1990; Proctor et al., 1992).

The technological significance of rigor mortis is of major importance when the fish is filleted before or in rigor. In rigor the fish body will be completely stiff; the filleting yield will be very poor, and rough handling can cause gaping. If the fillets are removed from the bone pre-rigor the muscle can contract freely and the fillets will shorten following the onset of rigor. Dark muscle may shrink up to 52 % and white muscle up to 15 % of the original length (Buttkus, 1963). If the fish is cooked pre-rigor the texture will be very soft and pasty. In contrast, the texture is tough but not dry when the fish is cooked in rigor. Post-rigor the flesh will become firm, succulent and elastic.

Table 5.1 Onset and duration of rigor mortis in various fish species

Species Condition Temperature C
Time from death to onset of rigor (hours)

Time from death to end of rigor (hours)

Redfish (Sebastes spp.) Stressed
0

22

120

Japanese flounder (Paralichthys olivaceus)
0

3

>72


Whole fish and fillets frozen pre-rigor can give good products if they are carefully thawed at a low temperature in order to give rigor mortis time to pass while the muscle is still frozen.

The sensory evaluation of raw fish in markets and landing sites is done by assessing the appearance, texture and odour. The sensory attributes for fish are listed in Table 5.2. Most scoring systems are based upon changes taking place during storage in melting ice. It should be remembered that the characteristic changes vary depending on the storage method. The appearance of fish stored under chilled condition without ice does not change as much as for iced fish, but the fish spoil more rapidly and an evaluation of cooked flavour will be necessary. A knowledge of the time /temperature history of the fish should therefore be essential at landing.

The characteristic sensory changes in fish post mortem vary considerably depending on fish species and storage method. A general description has been provided by the EEC in the guidelines for quality assessment of fish as shown in Table 5.2. The suggested scale is numbered from 0 to 3, where 3 is the best quality.

The West European Fish Technologists' Association has compiled a multilingual glossary of odours and flavours which also can be very useful when looking for descriptive words for sensory evaluation of freshness of fish (Howgate et al., 1992 (Appendix C).

Changes in eating quality

If quality criteria of chilled fish during storing are needed, sensory assessment of the cooked fish can be conducted. Some of the attributes for cooked fish and shellfish are mentioned in Table 5.2. A characteristic pattern of the deterioration of fish stored in ice can be found and divided into the following four phases:

Phase 1 The fish is very fresh and has a sweet, seaweedy and delicate taste. The taste can be very slightly metallic. In cod, haddock, whiting and flounder, the sweet taste is maximized 2-3 days after catching.
Phase 2 There is a loss of the characteristic odour and taste. The flesh becomes neutral but has no off-flavours. The texture is still pleasant.
Phase 3 There is sign of spoilage and a range of volatile, unpleasant-smelling substances is produced depending on the fish species and type of spoilage (aerobic, anaerobic). One of the volatile compounds may be trimethylamine (TMA) derived from the bacterial reduction of trimethyl-aminoxide (TMAO). TMA has a very characteristic "fishy" smell. At the beginning of the phase the off-flavour may be slightly sour, fruity and slightly bitter, especially in fatty fish. During the later stages sickly sweet, cabbage-like, ammoniacal, sulphurous and rancid smells develop. The texture becomes either soft and watery or tough and dry.
Phase 4 The fish can be characterized as spoiled and putrid.
Table 5.2 Freshness ratings: Council Regulation (EEC) No. 103/76 OJ No. L20 (28 January 1976) (EEC, 1976)

Criteria

Last edited by jigmaster; 03-17-2011 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 03-17-2011, 04:30 PM   #3
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Default Never met a flounder that i didn't like

I've eaten FRESH seafood for over 40 years and never put the thought into my fish that you guys do. I make sure they're iced and processed timely and if they're not dinner they are frozen in water till they become dinner. All I got to say about that.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:25 PM   #4
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So it sounds like the fish should be held in refrigeration until after rigor has subsided & then filleted & cooked, right?
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Old 03-19-2011, 07:23 AM   #5
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Default Fish prep

I was like the guy who never thought about it. Until...
I did not do reader h or anything like that. Happenstance,.. I made a discovery.
I had gotten back from fishing in Jan. I didn't buy any ice before I left. I forgot to. Then I thought.. I'll just put some water in my bait bucket and throw fish in there if I catch any. Should be cold enough.
So I damn forgot again on way home to get ice. I had bout 7 or 8 trout. Btwn 14 and 18 in. So I wrapped gutted them and wrapped them in a trash bag and put them in the fridge.
Next day, I took them out and put the bag in ice chest. Drove over to fish cleaning table.
Fed dogs and generally piddled for bout twenty min.
Set to clean fish. Filleted them and put them in a plastic container with no water in it.
Took inside. Washed. Fried.
They were the BEST I had ever eaten. Flesh was so perfectly white. Perfect moisture. Perfect sweet taste. Better than ever.
I have not attempted to duplicate because I figured I just did better cooking them than normal. But after reading the prep stuff, I may try to get close to what I did before.
But unlike the guy who been fishing for 40 years and not ever worried about it,,.. I'm def not above learning something.
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Old 03-19-2011, 10:31 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sydbrn329 View Post
I was like the guy who never thought about it. Until...
I did not do reader h or anything like that. Happenstance,.. I made a discovery.
I had gotten back from fishing in Jan. I didn't buy any ice before I left. I forgot to. Then I thought.. I'll just put some water in my bait bucket and throw fish in there if I catch any. Should be cold enough.
So I damn forgot again on way home to get ice. I had bout 7 or 8 trout. Btwn 14 and 18 in. So I wrapped gutted them and wrapped them in a trash bag and put them in the fridge.
Next day, I took them out and put the bag in ice chest. Drove over to fish cleaning table.
Fed dogs and generally piddled for bout twenty min.
Set to clean fish. Filleted them and put them in a plastic container with no water in it.
Took inside. Washed. Fried.
They were the BEST I had ever eaten. Flesh was so perfectly white. Perfect moisture. Perfect sweet taste. Better than ever.
I have not attempted to duplicate because I figured I just did better cooking them than normal. But after reading the prep stuff, I may try to get close to what I did before.
But unlike the guy who been fishing for 40 years and not ever worried about it,,.. I'm def not above learning something.
Good insight!!!
Oddly enough I went gigging thought I would get up early and fillet the fish before work however I didn't. Left them on ice and to top it off I ended up working late.They finally got cleaned 7:30-8 p also warm out due to summertime. Was a little skeptical....not wanting to eat bad fish wasn't so sure.... they had been ice a long time, but not gutted. Kept smelling them having no off odor as It turned out they had excellent robust taste and odor as they cooked.
At the time I chalked it up to my cooking ability. I think the worst fish I've had was freshly caught and cleaned>They curled like a banana, shrunk and had little flavor. My understanding is this is best for saltwater fish instead of freshwater fish with the exception of Catfish.

Last edited by jigmaster; 03-19-2011 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 03-19-2011, 11:10 AM   #7
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Default Fish processing

OK sydbrn329
I never said that I was opposed to learning something NEW. I simply said that I had never given it the thought that the gentlemen above had. Makes sense to me and will use and appreciate the info. The only question I have is how someone that can't remember ice coming and going can use it?????
Just Curious
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Old 03-19-2011, 12:31 PM   #8
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Default UMAMI the 5th basic Taste

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami

Last edited by jigmaster; 03-19-2011 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:56 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan611 View Post
OK sydbrn329
I never said that I was opposed to learning something NEW. I simply said that I had never given it the thought that the gentlemen above had. Makes sense to me and will use and appreciate the info. The only question I have is how someone that can't remember ice coming and going can use it?????

Just Curious
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Wel.. Bamafan.. I guess I'm just weak minded.
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:58 PM   #10
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Ive kept fish with guts in a friedge for 4-5 days cleaned em and they were awesome. I think the main thing i do is use frozen water bottles and no ice or slush although at certain times I do that to. Either way minimizing your seasoning/preperation is more importnt to me than how much blood is pumped out before rigor mortis and what not...I actually prefer to clean my wish with the skin being dried out in the fridge....I have no probs cleaning them!
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