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Old 12-02-2010, 06:34 AM   #41
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If the problem is greed. What is the solution?

A. Massive regulation by government?
B. A re-focus of morals and values by the family, schools and society in general?
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Old 12-02-2010, 08:29 AM   #42
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If the problem is greed. What is the solution?

A. Massive regulation by government?
B. A re-focus of morals and values by the family, schools and society in general?
It doesn't need to be massive.

For example,

There isn't personal responsibility for damage caused by corporations, for example, offshore drillers, drugmakers, etc. That can be regulated.

A more progressive tax system would take away a lot of the motivation for demanding the super-high salaries sometimes received by athletes, CEOs, etc. That can be regulated.

Congressional greed also would need to be addressed, such as by taking away the opportunity to make a killing by installing term limits.

Joraca
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Old 12-02-2010, 10:31 AM   #43
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Joraca,

What about B.? Everything good with the fabric of our society? I have personally whatched the destruction of our society since the 60's. Violence, greed, attacks on the family, no responsibility, litigation, lack of trust, lack of respect, elitism, removal of god, historical ignorance, big brother, victimization, hate, immoral behavior to name a few.

A certain amount of regulation is a good thing. But, it should be at the apex of business and it should have teeth. Example; doctor gets convicted of malpractice, he should be put on probation. If it happens again his license should be yanked and he should not be allowed to practice medicine as a doctor ever again. Crimminals, should actually be punished, they should be making little rocks out of big rocks. If there is an oil spill due to not following regulations, they should be held 100% accountable. If a corporation breaks existing regulations, the top guy and his immediate replacement should be held personally responsible, as well as the company being fined a percentage of the previous years gross profits. Get the idea. Low regulation, maximum pain for those igrnoring those regulations.
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:03 PM   #44
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If the problem is greed. What is the solution?

A. Massive regulation by government?
B. A re-focus of morals and values by the family, schools and society in general?

Ok, I will address this but first would like to point something out right off the get go. You are asking for a solution and even offered up some options but your options are already showing some bias. By your statements you have already started to write A off because you are assuming it is going to be a MASSIVE change before the solution has even been decided. This pre-determination of the outcome prior to even hearing the solution indicates that you are adverse to it without even knowing the cost or the effect. Now, not only do I have to provide a solution but I have to overcome the bias that you have already ASSUMED will be in the solution.

A. I am a big fan of trust. I will initially trust you to do the right thing. So, let's start off by saying that we will set some guidelines which will simply inform companies what is expected of them in their correction of the greed and pay differences that exist in the corporate world. Just like you can say there is a right and wrong in theft you can determine a right and wrong in pay scale differentials.

All salaries should show an incremental increase that is commiserate with the responsibility of the job. This is done in the military so I know it can be done. The difference as you climb the scale should not make ridiculous jumps. This will ensure that no one is taken advantage of and will keep the greed out of the position.

So, if it is good enough for our military why is it not good enough for companies? We expect our soldiers and sailors to perform. When they do they are rewarded with promotion and when they are not they are punished with demotion or worse. This again can easily carry over to a company. Companies have already shown a willingness to take on military concepts of rank. Most companies operate with a rank structure ending at the top.

The military is the perfect display of teamwork. A company is a team and should act like one.

Now, I know, you are going to start talking about being paid for better performance and so on. And this comes down to the very essence of the problem and the start of the lack of morals.

When I was an E-1 I had a job to do and if I did it well it bettered my chances to become an E-2. I did my job and I was graded on my performance. I got 4.0 and was advanced to E-2. This continued. I was tested each year I was eligible for advancement and when I did well enough I advanced. If I did exceptional work I was given a medal that was worth points to my next advancement.
The work ethic I was taught by my father and his father was that you do your job to the best of your ability and expect only your paycheck in turn. If you do a really good job you MIGHT see a benefit but do not expect it. (This is the point that I would like to use the word ENTITLEMENT. People like to talk about how the poor and lazy feel that they are entitled to their government paycheck. Why are people not equally disgusted when an employee feels that they are ENTITLED to a huge paycheck because they made good decisions and the company benefits. Isn't that the job?)


So, as I have clearly demonstrated a CEO is hired to get the company to perform and when it does he is not some amazing entity that deserves millions of dollars while those on his team get little or no increase. Especially when those employees are the ones that are performing the actions that the CEO decided on that actually create the profit.

This version of entitlement is IMHO just as disgusting as the slacker taking welfare.

So, the solution is to demand that companies create and submit employee pay scales and then the $ that is on that pay scale should match perfectly with what each of them submits for their taxes.
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:45 PM   #45
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Joraca,

What about B.? Everything good with the fabric of our society? I have personally whatched the destruction of our society since the 60's. Violence, greed, attacks on the family, no responsibility, litigation, lack of trust, lack of respect, elitism, removal of god, historical ignorance, big brother, victimization, hate, immoral behavior to name a few.
Most of this seems to say that the disintegration of society is the problem, rather than greed. I'll take the position that greed (mostly billionaires, corporations and government) is what is causing a lot of the societal disintegration you point out. You can take the position that the societal disintegration is causing the greed, if you want to debate it. Or you can argue that the societal problems are root causes in themselves, and I'll argue otherwise.


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Originally Posted by Dplantmann View Post
A certain amount of regulation is a good thing. But, it should be at the apex of business and it should have teeth. Example; doctor gets convicted of malpractice, he should be put on probation. If it happens again his license should be yanked and he should not be allowed to practice medicine as a doctor ever again. Crimminals, should actually be punished, they should be making little rocks out of big rocks. If there is an oil spill due to not following regulations, they should be held 100% accountable. If a corporation breaks existing regulations, the top guy and his immediate replacement should be held personally responsible, as well as the company being fined a percentage of the previous years gross profits. Get the idea. Low regulation, maximum pain for those igrnoring those regulations.
I'd say efficient and effective regulation and consequences, but I otherwise agree in principle.
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Old 12-02-2010, 04:20 PM   #46
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Good comments guys.

I am all for the military model for public companies. However, I don't think that private companies should be forced to show the government anything other that they are compling with the regulations in place. Of course that is a slippery slope because the government will fix that by enacting more regulation.

If you are the one that started the company, and worked your butt off to make it succeed, what business is it of the government to control what you make?

The disintegration of society is the root of many of the problems facing this country. Kinda hard to argue otherwise.
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:04 PM   #47
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+1 to Joraca's comments and I would add that your grandfather probably had a list of those same problems at 60 years old only he will say that the problem started in the 30's or the 40's.

Ever think that many of these things may not be getting worse but since information is so easily gotten and compiled that it just seems that way? Most of the major cities in the US showed a decline in crime over the last few years.

http://www.independent.org/blog/index.php?p=7829

According to that the FBI says that violent crime has been on the decline for a decade.

Greed is certainly on the rise as is evidenced by the number of people being paid bonuses while the companies they are running are failing or shrinking.

Attacks on the family.... Not sure where this one comes from. There are no attacks on my family or the way I raise my child. This is 100% in my control and I would say that anyone that is having an issue with this is perhaps not a very good parent. You may have to explain what you mean by this one.

No responsibility - again I think you may have to explain what you mean.

Litigation - well, we are a country of laws and it is everyone's rights to exercise those laws. If a person feels slighted that is often their only recourse. Are there people who are abusing the system? Certainly. Should we fix it? Certainly. Again, you go back to the issue of, you won't be able to please everyone in the process of fixing it. We could certainly go back to the style of the mid 1800's in the west where if I felt slighted I might just shoot you in the face while everyone looked away.

Lack of trust - again, not sure what you mean here. Trust is usually earned. In the case of corporate greed I would certainly say that I trust NONE of them. I trust very few of my politicians but much of that comes from the fact that they are not libertarians and that is why I do not trust them.

Lack of respect - again, I consider that something that is earned. I also think the word is somewhat abused. Here in the south they teach kids to call all adults sir or ma'am indicating that they are all worthy of respect. Personally, I would rather get to know a person before I bestow a ton of respect on them.


Elitism - Yeah, this certainly needs to be better defined. I think almost everyone suffers from this one from time to time. I also think that people are using it as a buzzword right now and probably can't really find anything concrete as evidence they just "feel" that way.

Removal of God. Personally I think that God is not being removed from anything and I think that anyone that thinks it is is being irresponsible with God's relationship with his believers. I have yet to find a place in the bible where it tells me to force everyone to bear witness to my belief in God. So, I am not sure why Christians feel that our government should be in the religion business. Talk about elitist. You are essentially saying that your God is the best and only God and that everyone in the U.S. should be forced to look at the word God on every official document we have. Besides, you stated in the other thread that you are a constitutional conservative. Well, the constitution clearly states that it will establish no religion. Yet, here you are saying that is exactly what you want to do.

Historical Ignorance - Well, the weird thing about history is that it is just as biased as the teacher teaching it. So, we call it the civil war up north and down south it is the war of northern aggression...You tell me which one is correct.....

Big Brother - both sides are to blame for taking our rights. There are groups that try to save them but those groups tend to suffer from their own biases and the public opinion created as a result of those biases. The ACLU comes to mind.

Victimization - Everyone feels the victim at one time or another. You are suffering from that as we speak. Oh, I work hard, everyone wants my money, I am being taxed too high, I deserve to keep more of my money....

Hate - I am pretty sure there is no solution.

Immoral behavior - Whose morals are going to decide this one? Here again you are trying to force others to do as YOU think they should. I would ask this.... who in the hell are you to tell them what they can and cannot do when it does not affect you. Maybe I need an example of this immoral behavior you are referring to.
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:07 PM   #48
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Good comments guys.

I am all for the military model for public companies. However, I don't think that private companies should be forced to show the government anything other that they are compling with the regulations in place. Of course that is a slippery slope because the government will fix that by enacting more regulation.

If you are the one that started the company, and worked your butt off to make it succeed, what business is it of the government to control what you make?

The disintegration of society is the root of many of the problems facing this country. Kinda hard to argue otherwise.
I agree with you 100% on the private company thing. By all means. He created it he should have complete and total say.
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Old 12-03-2010, 10:59 AM   #49
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Greed is good! Isn't that the message of the 90's?

I know many parents who raise good kids. Most of those are formally educated or self educated. The problems seem to be generational, ignorance, lack of interest, schools, or outside influences.

Not being responsible for your actions...case in point, Charlie Rangel being admonished and still defiant to the end. There is the example of not taking responsibility. Or how about that idiot who blamed God for him dropping the winning pass in Sundays game?

Litigation has a place. No one suggested shooting anyone in the face. It's the outragous levels that it has reached.

No one trusts anyone else because you have the people in charge lying all the time. It is now an acceptible practice. You know, just like many youngsters thinking that cheating is OK. The people in charge or who have success (in terms of money) are the examples that people are constantly exposed to in the new world of instant communication.

Elitism is defined as the political class or anyone who is in a position of power due to net worth, and who you know to get things done.

Its not removal of God, it is that God is no longer acknowledged. We are the united states...remember 'One Nation Under God', 'In God we Trust'. A small minority has forced the removal of God from public spaces. Shouldn't this be something for the majority to decide is appropriate or not, instead of the courts?

History should be presented with all view points. Just like politics, because isn't it just politics that forms history anyhow?
Government control means the end of this country as we know it?

Victimization results from an individuals view point of what is right and what is wrong without common sense being the driving factor.

Hate is a human condition. It can be overcome if one comes to grips with victimization.

Immoral behavior. Goes back to common sense thinking..example, why would you give sex education to kindergarteners? There is so much more, but for instance, a society which kills the unborn, will proscute someone who kills an unborn baby in the commiting of a crime, but doesn't want to kill those who have taken other lives has serious moral problems. Just look at what is deemed ok on TV, in video games, in hollywood, in the oval office, the inner city, prison, wall street, the boardroom. etc. It goes back to teaching young children right from wrong at home and having school take care of the 3 rs ONLY.
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:43 PM   #50
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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Unempl....html?x=0&.v=1

Here is another issue. Maybe those guys unemployed for so long are there not from being depressed or lazy. Like I have said before, those people had jobs and were happy working them. If you are thinking your tax dollars are going to support a bunch of losers refusing to work your anger is likely misplaced. Maybe some of those top 1%er's should think about hiring some of these guys soon with that income that they are still getting to keep right now. Or maybe those companies with record profits should maybe re-hire some of those people that they let go.
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