The LaJess II

<P align=left>The following below my comment canbe found on page 159- 160 in the Magnuson-Stevens Act at website http://sero.nmfs.noaa.gov/sf/pdfs/MS...0112_FINAL.pdf<P align=left>If you guys &amp; gals get a chance should go into the website and do some reading. My opinion to a more cost effective way of reporting accurate data and being fair to everyone is going to be to implement a stamp let it be up to the individual angler as to if they want their share of Snapper. Example: If Mom &amp; Pop bait and tackle around the corner can sell licenses &amp; stamps then allow Charter Boat Captains to sell the stamps individually to anglers onboard under the vessel name without having to collect each anglers life history and to not make it time consuming. Result would be a more accurate account on how many Snappers taken. Once the year is up and the data collected there needs to be actual field study done and not behind a desk either but in the actual Gulf Of Mexico for each sector and be videoed reports as to how many Snapper are brought up from the bottom in a so many mile radius of each drop. <P align=left>A question I have is exactly how is it known how many Snappers actually exist in the Gulf to meet a harvest quota? Have not found a exact answer.<P align=left><P align=left>SEC. 407 GULF OF MEXICO RED SNAPPER RESEARCH 16 U.S.C. 1883<P align=left>(a) INDEPENDENT PEER REVIEW.?<P align=left>109-479<P align=left>(1) Within 30 days of the date of enactment of the Sustainable Fisheries Act, the<P align=left>Secretary shall initiate an independent peer review to evaluate?<P align=left>(A) the accuracy and adequacy of fishery statistics used by the Secretary for the red<P align=left>snapper fishery in the Gulf of Mexico to account for all commercial, recreational, and<P align=left>charter fishing harvests and fishing effort on the stock;<P align=left>(B) the appropriateness of the scientific methods, information, and models used by the<P align=left>Secretary to assess the status and trends of the Gulf of Mexico red snapper stock and as<P align=left>the basis for the fishery management plan for the Gulf of Mexico red snapper fishery;<P align=left>(C) the appropriateness and adequacy of the management measures in the fishery<P align=left>management plan for red snapper in the Gulf of Mexico for conserving and managing the<P align=left>red snapper fishery under this Act; and<P align=left>(D) the costs and benefits of all reasonable alternatives to a limited access privilege<P align=left>program for the red snapper fishery in the Gulf of Mexico.<P align=left>(2) The Secretary shall ensure that commercial, recreational, and charter fishermen in the<P align=left>red snapper fishery in the Gulf of Mexico are provided an opportunity to?<P align=left>(A) participate in the peer review under this subsection; and<P align=left>(B) provide information to the Secretary concerning the review of fishery statistics<P align=left>under this subsection without being subject to penalty under this Act or other applicable<P align=left>law for any past violation of a requirement to report such information to the Secretary.<P align=left>(3) The Secretary shall submit a detailed written report on the findings of the peer review<P align=left>conducted under this subsection to the Gulf Council no later than one year after the date of<P align=left>enactment of the Sustainable Fisheries Act.<P align=left>16 U.S.C. 1883<P align=left>MSA § 407<P align=left>160<P align=left>(b) PROHIBITION.?In addition to the restrictions under section 303(d)(1)(A), the Gulf<P align=left>Council may not, prior to October 1, 2002, undertake or continue the preparation of any fishery<P align=left>management plan, plan amendment or regulation under this Act for the Gulf of Mexico<P align=left>commercial red snapper fishery that creates an individual fishing quota program or that<P align=left>authorizes the consolidation of licenses, permits, or endorsements that result in different trip<P align=left>limits for vessels in the same class.<P align=left>(c) REFERENDUM.?<P align=left>109-479<P align=left>(1) On or after October 1, 2002, the Gulf Council may prepare and submit a fishery<P align=left>management plan, plan amendment, or regulation for the Gulf of Mexico commercial red<P align=left>snapper fishery that creates a limited access privilege program or that authorizes the<P align=left>consolidation of licenses, permits, or endorsements that result in different trip limits for<P align=left>vessels in the same class, only if the preparation of such plan, amendment, or regulation is<P align=left>approved in a referendum conducted under paragraph (2) and only if the submission to the<P align=left>Secretary of such plan, amendment, or regulation is approved in a subsequent referendum<P align=left>conducted under paragraph (2).<P align=left>(2) The Secretary, at the request of the Gulf Council, shall conduct referendums under<P align=left>this subsection. Only a person who held an annual vessel permit with a red snapper<P align=left>endorsement for such permit on September 1, 1996 (or any person to whom such permit with<P align=left>such endorsement was transferred after such date) and vessel captains who harvested red<P align=left>snapper in a commercial fishery using such endorsement in each red snapper fishing season<P align=left>occurring between January 1, 1993, and such date may vote in a referendum under this<P align=left>subsection. The referendum shall be decided by a majority of the votes cast. The Secretary<P align=left>shall develop a formula to weigh votes based on the proportional harvest under each such<P align=left>permit and endorsement and by each such captain in the fishery between January 1, 1993,<P align=left>and September 1, 1996. Prior to each referendum, the Secretary, in consultation with the<P align=left>Council, shall?<P align=left>(A) identify and notify all such persons holding permits with red snapper<P align=left>endorsements and all such vessel captains; and<P align=left>(B) make available to all such persons and vessel captains information about the<P align=left>schedule, procedures, and eligibility requirements for the referendum and the proposed<P align=left>individual fishing quota program.<P align=left>(d) CATCH LIMITS.?Any fishery management plan, plan amendment, or regulation<P align=left>submitted by the Gulf Council for the red snapper fishery after the date of enactment of the<P align=left>Sustainable Fisheries Act shall contain conservation and management measures that--<P align=left>(1) establish separate quotas for recreational fishing (which, for the purposes of this<P align=left>subsection shall include charter fishing) and commercial fishing that, when reached, result in<P align=left>a prohibition on the retention of fish caught during recreational fishing and commercial<P align=left>fishing, respectively, for the remainder of the fishing year; and<P align=left>(2) ensure that such quotas reflect allocations among such sectors and do not reflect any<P align=left>harvests in excess of such allocations.

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bob II

the NMFS conducts a series of studies and historical info to determine the status of fish species stocks. Here is simple explanation to a complicated system.

They conduct larval and trawl studies which they have done for years where they try to do them in the same locations and same periods of time over the years. They collect larvae and the numbers indicate the size of that year's number of fish as a large number indicates a large year class and a low number a low year class. The trawl studies collect age 0 and age 1 red snapper which helps to verify the size of the year class and how many larvae survived till the next year. They also do video and cage sampling in areas. They use the catch data from both com and rec and they measure and weigh some numbers of those fish and also take the otoliths (ear bones) which they use to age the fish. All of this data is collected from various areas across the gulf. They do stock assessments which are now done through SEDAR (southeast data assessment and review) where they have at least 3 meetings of scientists, state and federal officials, and stakeholders involved in the fishery. The first meeting is about the data where they go over tons of data, keep some, kick some out. They then do an assessment meeting where the info produced by the science center based on the data and run thru computer models is discussed and picked apart and stuff added or taken away. The third and generally last meeting is a review of the first two meeting and the assessment to determine if all the work was done appropriately. The review meeting is run by a panel of independent scientific experts in assessments but not from the area where the species is being discussed. Some times there is a fourth meeting when the 3rd meeting finds something that needs further discussion. After all this, the assessment is run before the scientific and statistical committee which is a committee formed by the council of scientific experts from various universities and state and fed science centers. They review the assessment and then make recommendations to the council about the assessment and recommend acceptable biological catch levels which the council then uses to set the total allowable catch.

Every one of these steps from the sedar to the council action is open to the public so they can attend. The process is wide open. As others andI have stated many times, data is the key, especially when it comes to the rec data. If the nmfs shows a lot of fishing effort then the catch is always high. Effort is directly relevent to catch. This is why we need a real number of anglers catching red snapper because if the number is known we will have a better idea of the amount of effort. If the number of red snapper in known then we have the best data. There is a way to do this.

Hopes this helps, as I said it is a simple explanation but isvery complicated.

need2fish

Here's a site where you can look at some summarized data that was gathered - you can poke around and also look to seethe methodologies and equations used in their analyses.

<U>http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st1/recr...ies/index.html</U>

bob II

Yes I know as I have used this site for years now. I am very familiar with the nmfs and how they work as I have been involved in this management game for over 20 years. It is complicated and takes a lot of time to try to understand as I know few people who do and I am certainly one who does not fully understand it but probably do as well as any layman. The site you provided can be accessed by anyone to view the data collected and see how that compares to what they actually see.

need2fish

Bob - The link I posted is the one you sent me via email.

For anyone looking at the data it is not the raw (individual survey or observation) data but is a view on a data warehouse where. I assume that the aggregated warehouse data was created via various loads and aggregations from the raw data that was collected. The information looks to have been aggregated and loaded by time series and other various attributes (species, etc). There is a make your own query section but you have to log in to access it. Looking at the methodology used and various input tools, I doubt all the raw inputs (individual survey or observation data) are within one system but instead gathered by various databases and other means, scrubbed (put through some form of validation process) and then loaded into the warehouse for further analysis.

Mark Griffith

bob II

you are correct. The raw data is evaluated in two month waves during what they call a wave meeting. These meetings are attended by fed and state personnel where they go over the raw numbers. The numbers included the individual dockside intercepts, the random digit dialing contacts, etc. If a number appears to be questionable, they go back and relook at the number and correct them if a mistake was made. The issues we have had are the random dialing and dockside interviews as they are statistically corrected for an assumed angler universe.

bob II

for those who would like to see more about stock assessments and the research provided go to this SEDAR site. http://www.sefsc.noaa.gov/sedar/. You can access all the documents used for all SEDARs. The last red snapper assessment is SEDAR 7.

Bob

Drew Mixon

tough crowd. whos keeping score, btw?

as and average joe angler, to the average joe anglers out there...

i support a federal red snapper stamp. it'll help count how many anglers are actually targeting snapper. the cost of the stamp will fund the research needed to make accurate counts. if you trout fish, wont cost you a thing. if you snapper fish, you ought to be please for the extra couple of bucks to help create REAL data to help the resource, and your own fishing.

i support to continue regulating for-hire recreational fishing in conjunction with private recreational fishing. it just makes sense. why in the world would you regulate it any other way? that sure aint broke, please dont try to 'fix' it.

thusly, i DO NOT support the SOS plan--in any way, shape or form. it is a dilution of support to selfserve very few. i have seen not one iota of data that would make me think otherwise.

i support our local watchdog groups--the ECRA, the RFRA, the PRFA. without a collective local voice, we are just keystrokes on the web. if you are not supporting these groups, you are doing yourself a disservice.

i support our local marine officials. without their local direction and voice, our local leaders have no idea what we want or need. do you really want Grover telling tallahassee what we need for our marine resources? yikes.

i greatly support the CCA. without an organized, responsible, educated and EXPERIENCED voices, we have no state or federal voice at all.

and lastly, i am a proponent of gamefish status for red snapper. from panama city to pensacola to gulf port to grand isle, if you want to eat a redfish from the gulf coast,you have to catch it yourself--either by yourself, or hired. gamefish status basically saved the redfish. while the snapper does not necessarily need the numbers 'saved', the regulation of the snapper does. if you want to eat a red snapper, you should catch it yourself--on your private boat or on a hired craft. reckon this, along with the snapper stamp, and there should be good data to base sound decisions on. too long has a TINY sector controlled a resource so great, for virtually no gain to the communities that built the resource--built with history, with actually dollars spent to build marinas, to build the reefs the fish depend on, and blood sweat and tears we go through every year to have to actually fight for our privilidge to take the resource we have so carefully cultivated. make the snapper a gamefish, and 75% of the arguements go away. get good data on who is fishing for snapper and wisely establish limts based on that data and virtually every arguement disappears. i expect the snapper limit would go to 5per person in a heart beat, if not more.

cheers.

drew